I have had considerable difficulty getting FAA authorized oxygen service stations to retest and refill my 22 cu. ft. steel tank. It was originally purchased and installed in 1978 by Sailplane Repair Service in Ft. Collins, CO in accordance with a 337. Local stations here in Dallas, TX will not touch it without an assembly part number AND, even if it had one, they would only be able to service it if the P/N matched one for which they are authorized to service. My tank only shows the DOT 3AA1800 number stamped in the steel, but this is not the number required for the assembly. How do others in the U.S. get their tanks serviced, as I don't think the older tanks ever had such a number affixed? Do any owners of the newer aluminum tanks have similar problems with getting them serviced?

On May 1, 6:17*pm, lynn > wrote:
> I have had considerable difficulty getting FAA authorized oxygen service stations to retest and refill my 22 cu. ft. steel tank

If there is a Technical Dive Shop in the area they may be able to help
you. A Technical Dive shop will do custom mixing of gases including
Helium and Oxygen for deep dives. Yes, they have the same DRY oxygen
we have. Think about having a regulator freeze up at 300 feet below
in the water. Locally we have a Technical Dive shop and they fill my
tank in a matter of minutes, just carry it in. I think the last time
they charged me about $3.50. They also recently started doing the
pressure test. Also a Gas supply house for oxygen systems, should be
able to do your testing and refill. ( about $35 the last time I went
there) Locally the quickest and cheapest is the Dive shop. Yes, they
have an impressive manifold system and give you 100% oxygen.

Kevin
192
92

I go to the place that hydrotests oxy cylinders for welders and
medical users. I have yet to bring them a bottle that they would not
or could not test.

So, I'd think that the question becomes: Who is imposing the
requirement that the test be done by an "FAA authorized oxygen service
station?" If that verbiage is in the specific documentation or
operating limitations for your sailplane, you might be stuck. But if
not, just get it hydrotested at any reputable pressurized gas vendor
and get on with life.

Thanks, Bob K.

Our club uses a local fire extinguisher shop. They do a good job for a good
price and they do it in house, ie, in a couple of days. When we've used
industrial gas suppliers they have shipped the tank to a newarby city and it
has taken a coupel of weeks.

Note that all regulation for compressed gas tank come from the DOT. I don't
think the FAA has any regulatory involvment with them.

John Scott

On May 1, 4:17*pm, lynn > wrote:
> I have had considerable difficulty getting FAA authorized oxygen service stations to retest and refill my 22 cu. ft. steel tank. It was originally purchased and installed in 1978 by Sailplane Repair Service in Ft. Collins, CO in accordance with a 337. Local stations here in Dallas, TX will not touch it without an assembly part number AND, even if it had one, they would only be able to service it if the P/N matched one for which they are authorized to service. My tank only shows the DOT 3AA1800 number stamped in the steel, but this is not the number required for the assembly. How do others in the U.S. get their tanks serviced, as I don't think the older tanks ever had such a number affixed? *Do any owners of the newer aluminum tanks have similar problems with getting them serviced?

I think the other responses have the right answer. There's just no
such thing as an "FAA Authorized Oxygen Service Station". What you
are looking for is a simple DOT hydrotest shop. All compressed gas
bottles require a current DOT stamp whether for aircraft or not.

My guess is you explained what the O2 bottle is for and the particular
shop is antsy about working on "airplane parts". My standard response
to a question like, "What's it out of?" is to say it's a project I'd
be happy to tell him all about but it'll take an hour. So far, no one
has asked to hear the 'story'.

On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 7:22:17 PM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
> On May 1, 4:17*pm, lynn > wrote:
> > I have had considerable difficulty getting FAA authorized oxygen service stations to retest and refill my 22 cu. ft. steel tank. It was originally purchased and installed in 1978 by Sailplane Repair Service in Ft. Collins, CO in accordance with a 337. Local stations here in Dallas, TX will not touch it without an assembly part number AND, even if it had one, they would only be able to service it if the P/N matched one for which they are authorized to service. My tank only shows the DOT 3AA1800 number stamped in the steel, but this is not the number required for the assembly. How do others in the U.S. get their tanks serviced, as I don't think the older tanks ever had such a number affixed? *Do any owners of the newer aluminum tanks have similar problems with getting them serviced?
>
> I think the other responses have the right answer. There's just no
> such thing as an "FAA Authorized Oxygen Service Station". What you
> are looking for is a simple DOT hydrotest shop. All compressed gas
> bottles require a current DOT stamp whether for aircraft or not.
>
> My guess is you explained what the O2 bottle is for and the particular
> shop is antsy about working on "airplane parts". My standard response
> to a question like, "What's it out of?" is to say it's a project I'd
> be happy to tell him all about but it'll take an hour. So far, no one
> has asked to hear the 'story'.

Well, I was told by locals at our club,the place to go to in Dallas was "Safetech". They are an FAA Repair station (No. SMER451X) and do oxygen system repairs and servicing for all types of aircraft. Safetech emphatically told me no work could be done without the assembly part number and the number would have to be on their list of P/Ns approved for their shop by the FAA. So perhaps I misstated the shop as an "authorized FAA oxygen service station" and should have stated it as an "FAA Repair Station" but this is all semantics. In any case, I have a PIK-20D which has a Type Certificate issued by the FAA and I have always tried to stay legal when it comes to working on aircraft. So this is why I have not tried a dive shop or other non-FAA approved facility. So, if the consensus is aircraft oxygen systems can be serviced by just about any compressed gas facility, so be it. I just want to know for sure if this is the proper way to go in the eyes of the FAA. Even a well known supplier of oxygen systems (adverting in Soaring Mag) knew nothing about the requirements for servicing at an FAA repair station and said dive shop or fire extinguisher servicing facilities can be used with no hassle but do not mention it is for aviation use. Sounds as if this method is not legal. So how about it you legal beagles out there--just how does an aircraft owner get their oxygen system serviced legally?

On May 2, 6:44*am, lynn > wrote:

> Well, I was told by locals at our club,the place to go to in Dallas
> was "Safetech". They are an FAA Repair station (No. SMER451X)
> and do oxygen system repairs and servicing for all types of aircraft...

Keep in mind that the majority of aircraft that carry supplemental
oxygen systems are corporate and executive transports typically
costing a couple million dollars each. They are required to have
oxygen systems as backups as spelled out in 14CFR§23.1441 and nearby
sections.

Note that I am not saying that these are the only aircraft that carry
supplemental oxygen systems. Our gliders are an obvious exception, as
are many personal aircraft outfitted for high-altitude cruising. But
they are the majority.

Anyhow, most FAA Repair stations that routinely handle supplemental
oxygen systems specialize in the repair and maintenance of
multimillion-dollar aircraft for the corporate sector. They cross all
the Ts and dot all the Is that keep their corporate clients and their
attorneys happy, charge commensurately, and everybody is happy. That
works great for them. Not so much for us glider operators.

The most cost-effective way to service your oxygen system is to learn
to do it yourself. Even if you don't actually do it yourself, you have
the knowledge required to hire an A&P or similarly qualified
individual and tell them what needs to be done. But not how, A&Ps
don't always like being told how even when you're right.

A good place to start is learning the federal regulations that spell
out the requirements for the certification, maintenance, and repair of
light aircraft. Here are some good resources:

* Advisory Circular AC43.13 is the general repair bible. It is
advisory in nature, and does not spell out the rule of law. But it is
a great guide, and the practices it spells out are generally within
the rules. You can download AC43.13 from a variety of Internet
sources.

* To browse the federal regulations by part and section, you can use
this link from the FAA website:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

* To search the federal regulations using keywords, use the Search
link on the page above, and enter "14" for the Title. For gliders, the
pilot certification stuff is in Part 61, the operational stuff is in
Part 91, and the aircraft type certification stuff is in Part 23.
Maintenance and repair of type certificated aircraft is spelled out in
Part 43. There are other relevant Parts, of course, but those are the
big ones.

Thanks, Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/HP-24-Sailplane-Project/200931354951

On 5/1/2012 3:17 PM, lynn wrote:
> I have had considerable difficulty getting FAA authorized oxygen
> service stations to retest and refill my 22 cu. ft. steel tank. It
> was originally purchased and installed in 1978 by Sailplane Repair
> Service in Ft. Collins, CO in accordance with a 337. Local stations
> here in Dallas, TX will not touch it without an assembly part number
> AND, even if it had one, they would only be able to service it if the
> P/N matched one for which they are authorized to service. My tank
> only shows the DOT 3AA1800 number stamped in the steel, but this is
> not the number required for the assembly. How do others in the U.S.
> get their tanks serviced, as I don't think the older tanks ever had
> such a number affixed? Do any owners of the newer aluminum tanks
> have similar problems with getting them serviced?

I'm under the impression that most gliders don't have an oxygen system
installed in them; instead, the pilot uses a "portable" system in the
glider, carefully ensuring the bottle and regulator are secured when
they are carried in the glider during flight.

My portable system is an oxygen bottle that can be easily removed in
less than a minute without using any tools, and a Mountain High
regulator that can be popped off the Dual-Lock fasteners in 10 seconds.
The bottle goes to any place that does testing and will affix the
correct DOT numbers; the regulator goes back to Mountain High if it has
a problem.

Do you have something different than this? If not, stop taking it to the
FAA shops, as they are not the appropriate place to work on it; if it is
different, describe it for us.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Wed, 02 May 2012 08:44:16 -0500, lynn > wrote:


So how about it you legal beagles out there--just
> how does an aircraft owner get their oxygen system serviced legally?


Lynn, OK. I'll bite. I don't think I'm a "legal beagle", but I am a bit
of an FAR-nerd, so I'll expose myself to collective ridicule and attempt
to answer your question completely.

The first question to ask (as others have pointed out) is whether your
oxygen tank is considered (legally) to be part of your aircraft or not.
If the tank is not listed in your operating limitations section as a piece
of required equipment, and has not been included in any subsequent 337
forms as something that is installed in the aircraft, then it is not part
of your aircraft. In general, if something is not part of your aircraft,
then the FAA does not care about who inspected it or how it was inspected.

If it is not installed as a part of the aircraft but is carried aboard the
aircraft, then it is "cargo." The FAA has regulations about carrying
oxygen cylinders as cargo, but these apply to inaccessible cargo areas of
transport-category aircraft. So, on a private, Part 91 flight the FAA
does not care about what type of oxygen tank you may have aboard.

On the other hand, the Department of Transportation (DOT) does have
regulations about the transport of compressed gas cylinders. I am not an
expert on DOT regulations, but to my knowledge these regulations are not
specific to aviation oxygen (as opposed to any other type of compressed
oxygen). Therefore, any place (dive shop, welding supply shop, etc.) that
is certified to test and inspect compressed gas cylinders according to the
DOT requirements should be able to inspect and test your cylinder.

There is nothing "illegal" or shady about this. It's a DOT regulation, so
any shop that meets DOT requirements (see below for discussion of these
requirements) can legally certify your cylinder (whether or not it's used
in aviation).

If (and I highly doubt that this is the case with your Pik 20) the oxygen
cylinder is required equipment, then the manufacturer would be obliged to
publish inspection criteria and servicing instructions, and then you'd be
obliged to follow these procedures. In the absence of any specific
guidance from the manufacturer, the Aircraft Maintenance Technician (e.g.
A&P or IA) performing maintenance or inspection of the oxygen system would
follow the FAA's procedures as outlined in AC 43.13-1B "Acceptable
Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection and Repair". In
Chapter 9 this Advisory Circular describes how an AMT should inspect and
service installed oxygen cylinders, to wit:

9-51. SERVICE OXYGEN CYLINDERS.
REQUIREMENTS (Ref 49 CFR 173.34 e,
16). Standard-weight cylinders must be hydrostatic
tested at the end of each 5-year period
(10 years if it meets the requirements in 49
CFR 173.34 e, 16). This is a Department of
Transportation (DOT) requirement. Thesecylinders
carry an ICC or DOT 3AA 1800
classification and are suitable for the use intended.
Lightweight cylinders must be hydrostatic
tested every 3 years, and must be retired from
service after 24 years or 4,380 pressurizations,
whichever occurs first. These cylinders carry
an ICC or DOT 3 HT 1850 classification and
must be stamped with the approval after being
inspected. (Ref. 49 CFR 173.34 e, 15).

Note that the FAA's guidance refers to 49 CFR which is the Transportation
code. The rules in 49 CFR 173.34 are pretty long, but your question
concerned who can do this inspection, not necessarily how it is done, so
I'll dispense with quoting the "how" and focus on the "who". 49 CFR
173.34 (e) (2) (i) says:"

"No person may mark a cylinder with a test date or retester identification
number,or otherwise represent that a DOT specification or exemption
cylinder has been retested under this section, unless that person holds a
current retester identification number issued by the Associate
Administrator for Hazardous Material Safety and operates in compliance
with the terms of the retester identification number issuance letter."

So, to finally answer your question of "how does an aircraft owner get
their oxygen system serviced legally?" I can offer this explanation. If
you have an installed oxygen system, all servicing must be done according
to the manufacturers instructions and/or AC 43.13-1B. 43.13-1B says that
the testing and marking of these cylinders must be done according to 49
CFR 173.34, which in turn specifies that the hydrstatic testing and
marking can only be done by someone who holds a current retester
identification number. So, the AMT would be obliged to take the cylinder
to someone who holds this retester identification number. This could be
an aviation-specific shop, or not. As long as they hold this
identification number and are operating under the terms of the issuance
letter for this number, then they can certify the tank. Your A&P would
then note this inspection in the aircraft logs, and everyone is happy.

On the other hand, if the oxygen system isn't an installed system, then
there is no legal requirement under the Federal Aviation Regulations
(anymore than there is a requirement for you to inspect a duffel bag or
any other item of cargo). However you still need to comply with 49 CFR
173.34 since the tank will be carried aboard an aircraft as cargo. In
this case, you should seek out someone who holds a retester identification
number as prescribed in 49 CFR 173.34 (e) (2) (i) and ask them to inspect
and certify your tank. Then, you're good to go.

I hope this is "legal-beagly" enough.

--Stefan


--
Stefan Murry

If the tank is "portable", and you will be having it hydro tested
locally, I suggest NOT using a welding supply place unless they test
on-site. If they throw a bunch of bottles in a truck to send off for
testing, your nice bottle will not come back looking the same.

bumper

On May 5, 10:06*am, bumper > wrote:
> If the tank is "portable", and you will be having it hydro tested
> locally, I suggest NOT using a welding supply place unless they test
> on-site. If they throw a bunch of bottles in a truck to send off for
> testing, your nice bottle will not come back looking the same.
>
> bumper

Yep, welding supply shops can be tricky.

Once I was on a errand to pick up a refilled (large type) O2 bottle.
While I waited for my turn at the counter, I noticed a truck being
unloaded at the dock. It was loaded with green O2 bottles - none of
which showed the blue "Aviation Oxygen" sticker.

Since I couldn't see any Aviation Oxygen bottles, I told the
counterman I wouldn't be surprised if he couldn't fill my order. "No
problem", he said, "Watch". He opened a drawer, retrieved a sheet of
blue Aviation Oxygen stickers and slapped one on the nearest green
bottle. "Now, he said, "I can sell you an Aviation Oxygen bottle -
that will be $115." "How much would it be without the sticker?"
"$35", he said.

It's surprising how honest people can be at times.

We use a lot of oxygen in Minden. All the bottles I see are hydrotested by a local fire extinguisher company, which is certified by the DOT. I'm not telling you how to do it, just how we do it here. Fred

Wasn't it P.T. Barnum who said, "There's a sucker born every minute"?

ABO - Hah! I only had one year of chemistry in college, but I do recall
that an element is an element is an element. Oxygen is oxygen.


"Bill D" > wrote in message
...
On May 5, 10:06 am, bumper > wrote:
> If the tank is "portable", and you will be having it hydro tested
> locally, I suggest NOT using a welding supply place unless they test
> on-site. If they throw a bunch of bottles in a truck to send off for
> testing, your nice bottle will not come back looking the same.
>
> bumper

Yep, welding supply shops can be tricky.

Once I was on a errand to pick up a refilled (large type) O2 bottle.
While I waited for my turn at the counter, I noticed a truck being
unloaded at the dock. It was loaded with green O2 bottles - none of
which showed the blue "Aviation Oxygen" sticker.

Since I couldn't see any Aviation Oxygen bottles, I told the
counterman I wouldn't be surprised if he couldn't fill my order. "No
problem", he said, "Watch". He opened a drawer, retrieved a sheet of
blue Aviation Oxygen stickers and slapped one on the nearest green
bottle. "Now, he said, "I can sell you an Aviation Oxygen bottle -
that will be $115." "How much would it be without the sticker?"
"$35", he said.

It's surprising how honest people can be at times.

On Monday, May 7, 2012 12:08:34 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Wasn't it P.T. Barnum who said, "There's a sucker born every minute"?
>
> ABO - Hah! I only had one year of chemistry in college, but I do recall
> that an element is an element is an element. Oxygen is oxygen.
>
>
> "Bill D" wrote in message
> ...
> On May 5, 10:06 am, bumper > wrote:
> > If the tank is "portable", and you will be having it hydro tested
> > locally, I suggest NOT using a welding supply place unless they test
> > on-site. If they throw a bunch of bottles in a truck to send off for
> > testing, your nice bottle will not come back looking the same.
> >
> > bumper
>
> Yep, welding supply shops can be tricky.
>
> Once I was on a errand to pick up a refilled (large type) O2 bottle.
> While I waited for my turn at the counter, I noticed a truck being
> unloaded at the dock. It was loaded with green O2 bottles - none of
> which showed the blue "Aviation Oxygen" sticker.
>
> Since I couldn't see any Aviation Oxygen bottles, I told the
> counterman I wouldn't be surprised if he couldn't fill my order. "No
> problem", he said, "Watch". He opened a drawer, retrieved a sheet of
> blue Aviation Oxygen stickers and slapped one on the nearest green
> bottle. "Now, he said, "I can sell you an Aviation Oxygen bottle -
> that will be $115." "How much would it be without the sticker?"
> "$35", he said.
>
> It's surprising how honest people can be at times.

.... Oxygen is oxygen.

I was just studying with my 2012 Private Pilot Test Prep book and found a relevant and hopefully interesting passage:

"Aviation oxygen should be used to replenish an aircraft oxygen systems... Oxygen used for medical purposes or welding normally should not be used because it may contain too much water. Specifications for Aviators' breathing oxygen are 99.5% pure oxygen and not more than .005 mg of water per liter of oxygen."

On May 7, 12:42*pm, wrote:
> On Monday, May 7, 2012 12:08:34 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Wasn't it P.T. Barnum who said, "There's a sucker born every minute"?
>
> > ABO - *Hah! *I only had one year of chemistry in college, but I do recall
> > that an element is an element is an element. *Oxygen is oxygen.
>
> > "Bill D" wrote in message
> ....
> > On May 5, 10:06 am, bumper > wrote:
> > > If the tank is "portable", and you will be having it hydro tested
> > > locally, I suggest NOT using a welding supply place unless they test
> > > on-site. If they throw a bunch of bottles in a truck to send off for
> > > testing, your nice bottle will not come back looking the same.
>
> > > bumper
>
> > Yep, welding supply shops can be tricky.
>
> > Once I was on a errand to pick up a refilled (large type) O2 bottle.
> > While I waited for my turn at the counter, I noticed a truck being
> > unloaded at the dock. It was loaded with green O2 bottles - none of
> > which showed the blue "Aviation Oxygen" sticker.
>
> > Since I couldn't see any Aviation Oxygen bottles, I told the
> > counterman I wouldn't be surprised if he couldn't fill my order. *"No
> > problem", he said, "Watch". *He opened a drawer, retrieved a sheet of
> > blue Aviation Oxygen stickers and slapped one on the nearest green
> > bottle. *"Now, he said, "I can sell you an Aviation Oxygen bottle -
> > that will be $115." *"How much would it be without the sticker?"
> > "$35", he said.
>
> > It's surprising how honest people can be at times.
>
> ... Oxygen is oxygen.
>
> I was just studying with my 2012 Private Pilot Test Prep book and found a relevant and hopefully interesting passage:
>
> "Aviation oxygen should be used to replenish an aircraft oxygen systems.... Oxygen used for medical purposes or welding normally should not be used because it may contain too much water. *Specifications for Aviators' breathing oxygen are 99.5% pure oxygen and not more than .005 mg of water per liter of oxygen."

That information was true 100 years ago but it's about a century out
of date. Oxygen today is made from a liquid air reduction process
which produces chemically pure oxygen. This is what is supplied to
all users. There's no incentive for the industry to deliberately
produce contaminated oxygen. There is zero water in any compressed
oxygen sold today.

If you dig a bit further, you'll find specifications for welding and
medical oxygen are far tighter than for 'aviation oxygen'.

On Monday, May 7, 2012 2:11:21 PM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
> On May 7, 12:42*pm, wrote:
> > On Monday, May 7, 2012 12:08:34 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Wasn't it P.T. Barnum who said, "There's a sucker born every minute"?
> >
> > > ABO - *Hah! *I only had one year of chemistry in college, but I do recall
> > > that an element is an element is an element. *Oxygen is oxygen.
> >
> > > "Bill D" wrote in message
> > ....
> > > On May 5, 10:06 am, bumper > wrote:
> > > > If the tank is "portable", and you will be having it hydro tested
> > > > locally, I suggest NOT using a welding supply place unless they test
> > > > on-site. If they throw a bunch of bottles in a truck to send off for
> > > > testing, your nice bottle will not come back looking the same.
> >
> > > > bumper
> >
> > > Yep, welding supply shops can be tricky.
> >
> > > Once I was on a errand to pick up a refilled (large type) O2 bottle.
> > > While I waited for my turn at the counter, I noticed a truck being
> > > unloaded at the dock. It was loaded with green O2 bottles - none of
> > > which showed the blue "Aviation Oxygen" sticker.
> >
> > > Since I couldn't see any Aviation Oxygen bottles, I told the
> > > counterman I wouldn't be surprised if he couldn't fill my order. *"No
> > > problem", he said, "Watch". *He opened a drawer, retrieved a sheet of
> > > blue Aviation Oxygen stickers and slapped one on the nearest green
> > > bottle. *"Now, he said, "I can sell you an Aviation Oxygen bottle -
> > > that will be $115." *"How much would it be without the sticker?"
> > > "$35", he said.
> >
> > > It's surprising how honest people can be at times.
> >
> > ... Oxygen is oxygen.
> >
> > I was just studying with my 2012 Private Pilot Test Prep book and found a relevant and hopefully interesting passage:
> >
> > "Aviation oxygen should be used to replenish an aircraft oxygen systems.... Oxygen used for medical purposes or welding normally should not be used because it may contain too much water. *Specifications for Aviators' breathing oxygen are 99.5% pure oxygen and not more than .005 mg of water per liter of oxygen."
>
> That information was true 100 years ago but it's about a century out
> of date. Oxygen today is made from a liquid air reduction process
> which produces chemically pure oxygen. This is what is supplied to
> all users. There's no incentive for the industry to deliberately
> produce contaminated oxygen. There is zero water in any compressed
> oxygen sold today.
>
> If you dig a bit further, you'll find specifications for welding and
> medical oxygen are far tighter than for 'aviation oxygen'.

Well, I guess the source of at least some of the obviously widespread confusion is clear - our training materials are incorrect and/or just out of date and out of touch with technical reality. thanks.

Bill:

In addition to being pure, bottled oxygen made from liquid air is also super dry -- all traces of water are frozen out in the process. So the old problem with oxygen not being dry is no longer an issue.

More than you'll want to know:


http://www.warmkessel.com/jr/flying/td/jd/13.jsp